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 Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64

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eljarras



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MensajeTema: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Mar Oct 18, 2011 7:34 pm

Vaya que sigue la mata dando, acaba de salir a la luz que al menos 300,000 bebés fueron robados y traficados por la ICAR en España durante el franquismo e inclusive tiempo después del franquismo, una periodista que fue la que investigó el caso avaba de realizar un documental para la BBC.

Citación :
300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain

Up to 300,000 Spanish babies were stolen from their parents and sold for adoption over a period of five decades, a new investigation reveals.

The children were trafficked by a secret network of doctors, nurses, priests and nuns in a widespread practice that began during General Franco’s dictatorship and continued until the early Nineties.

Hundreds of families who had babies taken from Spanish hospitals are now battling for an official government investigation into the scandal.
Several mothers say they were told their first-born children had died during or soon after they gave birth.


But the women, often young and unmarried, were told they could not see the body of the infant or attend their burial.

In reality, the babies were sold to childless couples whose devout beliefs and financial security meant that they were seen as more appropriate parents.


Official documents were forged so the adoptive parents’ names were on the infants’ birth certificates.
In many cases it is believed they were unaware that the child they received had been stolen, as they were usually told the birth mother had given them up.

Journalist Katya Adler, who has investigated the scandal, says: ‘The situation is incredibly sad for thousands of people.

‘There are men and women across Spain whose lives have been turned upside-down by discovering the people they thought were their parents actually bought them for cash. There are also many mothers who have maintained for years that their babies did not die – and were labelled “hysterical” – but are now discovering that their child has probably been alive and brought up by somebody else all this time.’


Nota completa en http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049647/BBC-documentary-exposes-50-year-scandal-baby-trafficking-Catholic-church-Spain.html

Luego dicen que todo lo malo fue antes, hace siglos, no creo que algo sucedido entre 1939 y 1989 sea antiguo, claro luego vendrá ZF a decir que todo es una conspiración masónica. Laughing
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Mar Oct 18, 2011 8:43 pm

16 niños diarios durante 50 años? no lo pongo en duda, pero si se me hace dificil de ocultar
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eljarras



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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Mar Oct 18, 2011 9:00 pm

LuisJ escribió:
16 niños diarios durante 50 años? no lo pongo en duda, pero si se me hace dificil de ocultar

En la liga vienen inclusive fotos de varios de esos niños y se habla de pruebas de ADN y la BBC es medianamente seria, además se da a entender en los reportajes que el gobierno franquista sabía y los ayudó a mantenerlo en secreto, ¿dices que todo es mentira por que el número es muy grande?, ¿dices que seguramente es cierto pero el número seguramente es mas bajo?, ¿cambia si fueron 50,000?, ¿lo hace menos aberrante?, El País sacó una serie de reportajes, no uno, varios:

Citación :
Siguiendo con sus pesquisas, logró arrancarles a sus padres la pista de que habían empezado la operación de "compra" a través de un íntimo amigo, que a su vez les había puesto en contacto con un médico. Sin embargo, Vicente averiguó que en realidad ese amigo íntimo había enlazado a sus padres con un cura, un tal don Salvador, quien a su vez les encaminó hacia unas monjas.

"Fui a ver a don Salvador, que solía venir a la casa de mis padres con ocasión de las comidas familiares. Me dijo que estaba esperando mi visita tras las informaciones que estaban saliendo en prensa y televisión sobre las tramas de adopciones ilegales", explica Vicente en la parafarmacia de L'Eliana, a tiro de piedra de Valencia, donde trabaja. "Ese sacerdote me espetó: '¿Qué andas buscando? Nosotros hacíamos una obra de caridad. Las madres seguramente serían jovencitas pudientes que no querían tener a sus hijos. ¿Por qué andas moviendo esto ahora, con la educación que te han dado tus padres?' A mis padres, en efecto, les dijeron en su día que mi madre biológica era una chica que no quería quedarse conmigo", explica Vicente, sin perder de vista a su hijo Mario, de dos años, que corretea en derredor.


Citación :
Sin embargo, su búsqueda está resultando complicada. Todos los papeles que posee son falsos. En el hospital donde se supone que nació le han dicho que destruyeron todos los archivos referentes a esas fechas. Por eso, ha pedido ayuda a todos los que, como él, están embarcados en una tarea que en la mayoría de los casos solo conduce a la frustración y a la melancolía. "Han venido madres a verme para pedirme consejo y otras con la creencia de que yo pudiera ser su hijo", dice Vicente.

Yo me enteré primero por que uno de esos niños terminó en Texas:

Citación :
A decades-long trade in babies involving hospital staff and Roman Catholic Church-run children's homes was active not only in Spain, but had an international dimension to it, further investigation by EL PAÍS can now reveal. Childless couples in the United States, as well as Central and South America, also came to Spain to circumvent adoption procedures.
Randy Ryder, who grew up in the small town of Seymore, Texas, was given to a US-Austrian couple shortly after he was born in 1971 at the San Ramón clinic in the Mediterranean port city of Málaga. He has been trying to trace his biological mother for the last decade.
"I was born on June 8, 1971, at the San Ramón de Málaga sanatorium. In 1998, my father told me that he had paid $5,000 for me, and>
that he had chosen 'the best-looking kid of all'," explains Ryder from his home in Austin, Texas. Ryder's birth certificate and other documents say that he was born to Randolph-Edward Ryder and Roswitha Huber. The truth is that Huber was unable to have children.
"My adoptive mother was an alcoholic. I remember that when I was a kid, she would get depressed and start drinking. And when she was drunk she would tell me that she had been given me by a woman called Inés Holm. On other occasions, she would say that my mother lived in Spain, but that I had been born in South Africa. I never paid her much mind, because when I asked my adoptive father he would tell me not to take any notice of her, and that she went crazy when she drank. When she was sober, she would deny what she had said..."

Citación :
In February 1973, a married couple resident in Central America came to Madrid to illegally adopt a baby girl. A year later they returned, and this time took a baby boy back with them. In both cases, the children were taken from the San Ramón clinic in Madrid, run at the time by Doctor Eduardo Vela Vela.
The couple's adoptive daughter prefers to keep their names, and hers, secret. She will say only that her adoptive father was from the United States, and her mother from an unnamed Central American country. They had been trying to have a child for five years, and were desperate. They had tried to adopt in Mexico without success, until a friend told them to try in Spain.
"A contact in Mexico told my parents that it was very easy to adopt in Spain, and put them in touch with a Spanish priest," says the daughter. The priest then put them in touch with Dr Vela Vela. After several telephone conversations over the course of a year, they were contacted in early 1973 and told that there would soon be a baby girl available in Madrid. It is now impossible to know if the biological mother gave her consent to the adoption: no documents pertaining to the birth exist.
All documents from the now-defunct San Ramón clinic, once the object of a police investigation, have disappeared.
The adoptive couple flew to Spain, and were duly given a baby girl on February 22, 1973. "My father, who has since died, told me that they went to the hospital and were shown a baby girl by one of the nuns; I was that child. They were told to return a few days later. My father refused and said he wanted to take me there and then. The nun asked if they wanted to see me being bathed. They were outraged when they saw the nun put me into a bowl of cold water. 'I'm not leaving without my little girl, I want her now,' my father shouted. And so they handed her over," she explains.
The clinic arranged all the paperwork: the baby was registered as the biological daughter of the Central American woman, and after applying for a passport at her embassy, the couple left with their new daughter.
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Mar Oct 18, 2011 9:05 pm

Este otro reportaje es de la revista TIME:

Citación :
It has been four decades since Pilar Maroto lost her newborn son, but tears still fill her eyes when she speaks of him. She perfectly remembers the moments after his birth in April 1972, when she heard his first cry and then, later, the sudden, devastating news that her little boy had died. On Tuesday, she stood outside Spain's Congress of Deputies and hoped that, finally, someone in power would take seriously her insistence that her baby didn't actually die on that day — instead, he was stolen by the hospital where she delivered him.

Rumors of widespread, organized efforts to steal newborns from their parents have circulated in Spain for decades. But it was only on March 15 when those who believe themselves to be victims of the crime had their first opportunity to tell their stories to the Spanish government. Their testimony, given in an attempt to persuade Spain's legislature to pass a law that would both help those who have had their babies taken from them and make it easier to prosecute perpetrators, is accompanied by legal cases that have, after years of effort, recently been admitted to the regional courts for investigation. Finally, it seems, Spain is ready to confront a horrifying aspect of its recent past.
(See remarkable pictures from Europe's past and present.)

There appear to be two distinct phases of baby theft that occurred in Spain during the 20th century. The first, which was not only approved by dictator Francisco Franco but also promoted by his government as a means of "improving" the Spanish "race," was politically inspired. In the years after Franco won Spain's civil war, he had tens of thousands of former Republicans and other dissidents arrested. The small children of imprisoned women dissidents were sent first to state-run centers or convents, and then reassigned to families whose values better coincided with the regime's. "The state considered these children in need of re-education," says University of Barcelona historian Ricard Vinyes, who has written a book on the subject. "It was actually proud of these efforts and would publish the results of how many children had been 'welcomed' annually."
Based on the documentation he has uncovered, Vinyes estimates that tens of thousands of children were taken from their parents during a campaign that lasted until the end of the 1940s. In many cases, they were never recovered. "The state allowed these children to change their names, making it harder for them to be located," he says. "And they were brought up being taught that their parents were murderers, so many had no desire to find them."
(See pictures of a vanishing way of life in a Galician village.)

As the regime became both less virulent about persecuting its enemies and more open to the outside world, the wave of politically motivated thefts receded — but then a new form of baby stealing emerged. In what appear to be thousands of cases throughout Spain, individual doctors and nurses — many of the latter nuns — took newborns from obstetric wards and sold them to prospective adopted parents. That's the claim by victims who, in many cases, can support their theory with death certificates that have clearly been falsified or cemetery documents that contradict what parents were told at the supposed time of death.

Mar Soriano believes her elder sister was one of the stolen children. On Tuesday, she told a commission of legislators how her mother delivered an apparently healthy baby girl on Jan. 3, 1964, at a hospital in Madrid. Later that day, however, her parents were told the child had died, and when her father went to claim his daughter's body, he was told she had already been buried in a mass grave at the Almudena cemetery. "They said she had died of an ear infection," Soriano testified. "Along with Beatriz, there were 10 other children born in the same hospital and during the same month whose cause of death was listed as ear infection." In total, 37 newborns supposedly died at that hospital during January 1964.
(See a brief history of baby lifts.)

Soriano's story is remarkably similar to that of the 1,000 or so people — parents who believe their babies were taken from them, and men and women who believe their siblings or they themselves were stolen — who have joined a suit recently filed in Valencia's provincial court. In each case, the woman gave birth to what she believed to be a healthy child, only to later be told that the infant had died and that it was impossible to see the body. Those babies were then allegedly sold to couples who paid, on average, the equivalent of $8,000. And the people accused of doing the selling are in many cases the very doctors and nurses who had delivered the babies. This is according to testimony given to lawyers and journalists by people who unwittingly bought the babies — many were told the charges were to cover the mother's expenses.

It has been four decades since Pilar Maroto lost her newborn son, but tears still fill her eyes when she speaks of him. She perfectly remembers the moments after his birth in April 1972, when she heard his first cry and then, later, the sudden, devastating news that her little boy had died. On Tuesday, she stood outside Spain's Congress of Deputies and hoped that, finally, someone in power would take seriously her insistence that her baby didn't actually die on that day — instead, he was stolen by the hospital where she delivered him.

Rumors of widespread, organized efforts to steal newborns from their parents have circulated in Spain for decades. But it was only on March 15 when those who believe themselves to be victims of the crime had their first opportunity to tell their stories to the Spanish government. Their testimony, given in an attempt to persuade Spain's legislature to pass a law that would both help those who have had their babies taken from them and make it easier to prosecute perpetrators, is accompanied by legal cases that have, after years of effort, recently been admitted to the regional courts for investigation. Finally, it seems, Spain is ready to confront a horrifying aspect of its recent past.
(See remarkable pictures from Europe's past and present.)

There appear to be two distinct phases of baby theft that occurred in Spain during the 20th century. The first, which was not only approved by dictator Francisco Franco but also promoted by his government as a means of "improving" the Spanish "race," was politically inspired. In the years after Franco won Spain's civil war, he had tens of thousands of former Republicans and other dissidents arrested. The small children of imprisoned women dissidents were sent first to state-run centers or convents, and then reassigned to families whose values better coincided with the regime's. "The state considered these children in need of re-education," says University of Barcelona historian Ricard Vinyes, who has written a book on the subject. "It was actually proud of these efforts and would publish the results of how many children had been 'welcomed' annually."

Based on the documentation he has uncovered, Vinyes estimates that tens of thousands of children were taken from their parents during a campaign that lasted until the end of the 1940s. In many cases, they were never recovered. "The state allowed these children to change their names, making it harder for them to be located," he says. "And they were brought up being taught that their parents were murderers, so many had no desire to find them."
(See pictures of a vanishing way of life in a Galician village.)

As the regime became both less virulent about persecuting its enemies and more open to the outside world, the wave of politically motivated thefts receded — but then a new form of baby stealing emerged. In what appear to be thousands of cases throughout Spain, individual doctors and nurses — many of the latter nuns — took newborns from obstetric wards and sold them to prospective adopted parents. That's the claim by victims who, in many cases, can support their theory with death certificates that have clearly been falsified or cemetery documents that contradict what parents were told at the supposed time of death.

Mar Soriano believes her elder sister was one of the stolen children. On Tuesday, she told a commission of legislators how her mother delivered an apparently healthy baby girl on Jan. 3, 1964, at a hospital in Madrid. Later that day, however, her parents were told the child had died, and when her father went to claim his daughter's body, he was told she had already been buried in a mass grave at the Almudena cemetery. "They said she had died of an ear infection," Soriano testified. "Along with Beatriz, there were 10 other children born in the same hospital and during the same month whose cause of death was listed as ear infection." In total, 37 newborns supposedly died at that hospital during January 1964.
(See a brief history of baby lifts.)

Soriano's story is remarkably similar to that of the 1,000 or so people — parents who believe their babies were taken from them, and men and women who believe their siblings or they themselves were stolen — who have joined a suit recently filed in Valencia's provincial court. In each case, the woman gave birth to what she believed to be a healthy child, only to later be told that the infant had died and that it was impossible to see the body. Those babies were then allegedly sold to couples who paid, on average, the equivalent of $8,000. And the people accused of doing the selling are in many cases the very doctors and nurses who had delivered the babies. This is according to testimony given to lawyers and journalists by people who unwittingly bought the babies — many were told the charges were to cover the mother's expenses.



"There was no longer any legal cover for what they were doing," says lawyer Enrique Vila, who, in the Valencia case, is representing Anadir, an association of parents and children who believe they were the unwitting victims of these thefts. "But some doctors, priests and nuns realized that there were economic benefits to the practice."

Economic and, it seems, spiritual. Many of the women who believe their children were stolen were unmarried at the time, a shocking breach of social norms during the strict years of the Catholic Franco regime. Journalist Natalia Junquera has been investigating the cases for a series that the national newspaper El País is publishing this month. "From what I've seen, the most important motive was ideological," she says. "Nuns and priests who simply decided that the child would be better off with families they trusted than with the ones to which they had been born." The thefts are believed to have continued into the early 1980s.





¿Conspiración de la BBC, El País y TIME?
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cefaz
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Miér Oct 19, 2011 12:36 am



Espera...

fuck conscience

Es un claro intento de desprestigio de la ICAR de parte de grupos que intentan tomar su lugar.

Aparte que eso es España... y seguro está exagerado... y.... y...
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Miér Oct 19, 2011 8:45 am

bluejarras escribió:
LuisJ escribió:
16 niños diarios durante 50 años? no lo pongo en duda, pero si se me hace dificil de ocultar

En la liga vienen inclusive fotos de varios de esos niños y se habla de pruebas de ADN y la BBC es medianamente seria, además se da a entender en los reportajes que el gobierno franquista sabía y los ayudó a mantenerlo en secreto, ¿dices que todo es mentira por que el número es muy grande?, ¿dices que seguramente es cierto pero el número seguramente es mas bajo?, ¿cambia si fueron 50,000?, ¿lo hace menos aberrante?, El País sacó una serie de reportajes, no uno, varios:


que parte de "no lo pongo en duda" no entendiste? lo que me impresiona es la cantidad y que se haya podido mantener en secreto durante 50 años, o que entiendes tu por no poner en duda?
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Miér Oct 19, 2011 9:58 am

bluejarras escribió:
Vaya que sigue la mata dando, acaba de salir a la luz que al menos 300,000 bebés fueron robados y traficados por la ICAR en España durante el franquismo e inclusive tiempo después del franquismo, una periodista que fue la que investigó el caso avaba de realizar un documental para la BBC.
Espero que no sea el caso como la guardería ABC en Sonora y la gente culpable vaya al bote.

A lo que leí, hay una corrupción muy grande, corrupción no en el sentido de obtener billete, sino en el sentido de saber que es lo correcto y que no.
"Dr Vela grabbed a metal crucifix which had been standing on his desk. He moved towards me brandishing it in my face. "Do you know what this is, Katya?" he said. "I have always acted in his name. Always for the good of the children and to protect the mothers. Enough."

Muchas de estas personas creian que estaba haciendo lo correcto. WTF??

"There appear to be two distinct phases of baby theft that occurred in Spain during the 20th century. The first, which was not only approved by dictator Francisco Franco but also promoted by his government as a means of "improving" the Spanish "race," was politically inspired. In the years after Franco won Spain's civil war, he had tens of thousands of former Republicans and other dissidents arrested. The small children of imprisoned women dissidents were sent first to state-run centers or convents, and then reassigned to families whose values better coincided with the regime's."

La corrupción no solo es de la iglesia, es de todo el sistema. El Estado creo y fomento el robo de bebes, utilizaron a un sistema retrogrado donde la iglesia española en su logica chueca todo tenia sentido y por otro lado los politicos actuales no han querido investigar... es mas si se parece todo esto a lo de la guarderia ABC.

Finalmente, "up to" no es lo mismo que "al menos", Jose.. simplemente aclarando.
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eljarras



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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Miér Oct 19, 2011 7:09 pm

Bueno, bueno, bueno, ese al menos si fue de mi cosecha, exageré.
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eljarras



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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Miér Oct 19, 2011 9:05 pm

LuisJ escribió:
bluejarras escribió:
LuisJ escribió:
16 niños diarios durante 50 años? no lo pongo en duda, pero si se me hace dificil de ocultar

En la liga vienen inclusive fotos de varios de esos niños y se habla de pruebas de ADN y la BBC es medianamente seria, además se da a entender en los reportajes que el gobierno franquista sabía y los ayudó a mantenerlo en secreto, ¿dices que todo es mentira por que el número es muy grande?, ¿dices que seguramente es cierto pero el número seguramente es mas bajo?, ¿cambia si fueron 50,000?, ¿lo hace menos aberrante?, El País sacó una serie de reportajes, no uno, varios:


que parte de "no lo pongo en duda" no entendiste? lo que me impresiona es la cantidad y que se haya podido mantener en secreto durante 50 años, o que entiendes tu por no poner en duda?

Disculpa, como dices, "no lo pongo en duda pero se me hace dificl de ocultar", parece que lo pones ne duda, perdonarás que no lo entienda pero no todos tienen tu gran intelecto, tu excelente prosa y tu impecable lógica, che Luisj, no mameis que no es Corn Flakes, yo entonces puedo decir, no pongo en duda que seas inteligente, pero se me hace dificil verlo con tus comentarios tan pendejos, luego puedo decir ¿que parte de no pongo en duda no entiendes? si alguien me acusa de llamarte pendejo.

No es por ser mamilas, pero sonaste a los weyes que veladamente tratan de negar el holocausto por que se les hacen demasiado grandes los números, pero para que veas que soy buen forista, te voy a dar el beneficio de la duda y creeré que esta es la primera vez que un comentario tuyo que parece medio pendejo, no lo es y que genuinamente solo se te hacía muy grande el número, especialmente por que no pongo en duda tu inteligencia. Laughing
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Miér Oct 26, 2011 4:02 pm

Pues a mi ambos numeros, los del Holocausto y estos, se me hacen demasiado. "Se calcula" no es suficiente, Jarras.

Pero podria ser el 10%, 30,000 y el problema seguiria siendo mounstroso.

Edgardini, solo es cuestion de oir al Zorro o el Blue para que veas como esa gente cree estar haciendo lo correcto, el trabajo de dios, mientras reparten mierda.
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Jue Oct 27, 2011 8:21 am

Si... ej un compló

- - - -

¿Alguien sabe si de paso eran ingenieros o abogados los que traficaban con niños?

Seguramente también eso puede causar deformación de clase.

- - - -

El problema no son ni la religión católica ni la ICAR, sino los fanáticos, tanto dentro como fuera de ambas;

Unos rebasando por la izquierda maltratando/abusando/traficando niños, y los otros dandole especial atención al tema.

Toda esa escórea, es igual de escórea dentro y fuera de cualquier institución, habiendo estudiado cualquier carrera, simplemente es un tema que ya de entrada es icongruente el actuar de esas personas con lo que se postula por la Iglesia...
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Jue Oct 27, 2011 9:19 am

Miren este pedo mas que por religion es por la gente, de haber pasado en cualquier otro pais y en otra epoca la mayoria de las veces los que se sienten superiores salen con marranadas parecidas, ese es el tipico comportamiento de los que se sienten "arios".
Como dijo edgar el pedo no fue la iglesia aunque yo no le tiraria culpa solamente a franco o al gobierno sino a la gente, lo mismo que paso en la alemania nazi donde los mismos ciudadanos se hicieron pendejos ante atrocidades sin nombre por muchas razones... ninguna valida para mi.

Lo grave es que la iglesia debio haber sabido lo que pasaba y se hicieron pendejos, entiendo que hay momentos en los que no se puede reaccionar porque te aplastan pero debio de haber mantenido algun recurso apra enmendar lo que sus sacerdotes españoles hicieron, el pedo es que podria apostar que la jerarquia eclesiastica de la epoca compartia mas la forma de pensar de los que se creen divinos que la nuestra. Pero volvemos a lo mismo el pedo es de GENTES y no de entes.
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Jue Oct 27, 2011 9:28 am

BlueKnight escribió:
Si... ej un compló

- - - -

¿Alguien sabe si de paso eran ingenieros o abogados los que traficaban con niños?

Seguramente también eso puede causar deformación de clase.

- - - -

El problema no son ni la religión católica ni la ICAR, sino los fanáticos, tanto dentro como fuera de ambas;

Unos rebasando por la izquierda maltratando/abusando/traficando niños, y los otros dandole especial atención al tema.

Toda esa escórea, es igual de escórea dentro y fuera de cualquier institución, habiendo estudiado cualquier carrera, simplemente es un tema que ya de entrada es icongruente el actuar de esas personas con lo que se postula por la Iglesia...
Rolling Eyes
Los que le dan especial atención al tema son un problema ¿por qué? o más bien ¿para quién?

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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Jue Oct 27, 2011 11:19 am

Cuando algo malo sucede, es por la gente. En cambio las buenas acciones son por la religión.
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Mar Nov 29, 2011 12:31 pm

Muy al cuento:



Very Happy
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Mar Nov 29, 2011 2:46 pm

cefaz escribió:
Cuando algo malo sucede, es por la gente. En cambio las buenas acciones son por la religión.

No siempre, pero últimamente... si es cierto.

Digamos que al doctrina de la religión no te lleva a hacer nada de lo que están reclamando, y en efecto fue la gente la que, en contra de la doctrina y los principios que promulga, comete estas cosas.

Y lo digo a favor lo mismo de la ICAR que del budismo o del Islam... ninguna de las tres te pide una cuota de niños manoseados, vendidos ni algo por el estilo, de hecho los plantean como contrario al espíritu de lo que promueven.

Cuando la ICAR promovió doctrinalmente una "Guerra Santa" (Cruzada), ahí se ponen de pechito para ser criticada, igual que el Islam con su Jihad.
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Mar Nov 29, 2011 2:54 pm

Tan no es cierto que la gente es buena o mala independientemente de su religión. Que se promueva desde la doctrina "el bien" ultimadamente pasa a ser secundario, pues a fin de cuentas es la gente quien decide actuar o no actuar, bien o mal.

Aparte que cuando se habla de religión no se puede uno limitar estrictamente a la doctrina. La religiosidad en el plano humano es bastante más amplia que eso.
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Jue Ene 05, 2012 7:39 pm

Renuncia obispo auxiliar de Los Ángeles que tiene dos hijos adolescentes

Los Ángeles, 4 ene (EFE).- El obispo auxiliar católico de Los Ángeles, Gabino Zavala, ha renunciado a su puesto -y el Papa Benedicto XVI ha aceptado la dimisión- después de que el sacerdote reconociera que tiene dos hijos adolescentes, informó hoy a Efe la Archidiócesis de esa ciudad de California.


El arzobispo José Gómez, en una carta a los feligreses, dijo que Zavala, de 60 años de edad, nacido en México y obispo auxiliar en la región de San Gabriel, le informó a comienzos de diciembre de que tenía dos hijos que viven con la madre en otro estado. (esto realmente es increíble, macabro, como es posible que una doctrina pseudo cristiana separe a una familia? A honra de honrar a Dios? No entiendo)


El Vaticano informó hoy que el Papa ha aceptado la renuncia de Zavala bajo la regla canónica que permite que los obispos dejen su cargo antes de la edad normal de retiro, a los 75 años, si una enfermedad u otro impedimento les incapacita para sus funciones. (cual será la realidad, mantener a fuerza el statu quo? La infalibilidad papal en sus múltiples dogmas? Aunque un hombre que se entrego por años a la obra del ministerio, lo jubilen como pretexto, son rudos! O quizá, el ya no quería mas esa falsa vida doble… )

"El obispo Zavala me indicó que ha presentado su renuncia al Santo Padre en Roma, la cual fue aceptada", señaló Gómez en su carta. "Desde ese momento, no ha estado en ministerio y vive en privado".


"La Archidiócesis se ha puesto en contacto con la madre y los niños para proporcionar cuidado espiritual y apoyo financiero que ayude a cubrir los costos de educación universitaria de los jóvenes", añadió Gómez.


"La identidad de la familia no es de conocimiento público y yo deseo respetar su derecho a la intimidad", señaló el arzobispo.


Desde el siglo XI la Iglesia Católica exige que sus sacerdotes sean célibes (que locura!). Esta semana el Papa Benedicto XVI designó a un exsacerdote anglicano, casado y convertido al catolicismo (que barbaridad!), para que encabece la estructura que aceptará en Estados Unidos a otros sacerdotes anglicanos, casados o no (será que llegó el tiempo de la cordura???), que se conviertan ( ya no entendí ) a esa fe.

El arzobispo José Gómez, en una carta a los feligreses, dijo que Zavala, de 60 años de edad, nacido en México y obispo auxiliar en la región de San Gabriel, le informó a comienzos de diciembre de que tenía dos hijos que viven con la madre en otro estado. EFE/Archivo

http://mx.noticias.yahoo.com/renuncia-obispo-auxiliar-ángeles-hijos-adolescentes-192606393.html


...porque dimitiría a su puesto? Si,

Citación :
1 Timoteo 3

Requisitos de los obispos

1 Palabra fiel: Si alguno anhela obispado, buena obra desea.
2 Pero es necesario que el obispo sea irreprensible, marido de una sola mujer, sobrio, prudente, decoroso, hospedador, apto para enseñar;
3 no dado al vino, no pendenciero, no codicioso de ganancias deshonestas, sino amable, apacible, no avaro;


Cuando los hombres de Dios viven la palabra... están en un error ante la doctrina católica!!! ... ni pa opinar, verdad TT??


Última edición por Gaviota el Jue Ene 05, 2012 9:00 pm, editado 1 vez
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cefaz
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Jue Ene 05, 2012 7:54 pm

A mí no me asusta el que los sacerdotes salgan con hijos o con mujeres. No veo ningún conflicto ético. Que se arreglen dentro de su club con respecto a sus reglas, pero a mí me da igual. Supongo que no son pocos los sacerdotes que tienen algun que otro vástago por ahí, no se diga los que tienen una mujer.
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Jue Ene 05, 2012 8:25 pm

Dicen por ahí: Un cura es una persona a quien todos le dicen Padre, pero sus verdaderos hijos le dicen tio.
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Lun Feb 13, 2012 12:59 pm

Pues al aprecer la crisis en el vaticano esta que arde, segun esta nota el papa tiene muchos mas pedos de los que parece, incluso el rumor de su asesinato en los proximos 12 meses mas que preocupar a muchos por su integridad los pone a analziar quien sera el siguiente, creo que a natzinguer se le complic ala existencia.
y aqui ente nos me ATERRORIZA pensar que se lo merienden en su viaje aca a mejico, no se pero si me dieran a escoger un lugar donde matar a algun pelado importante (entre los paises "visitables") yo si elegia a mexico, hay demasiado parque de sobra y cero autoridad.


Citación :

"Monsignors' mutiny" revealed by Vatican leaks

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Call it Conspiracy City. Call it Scandal City. Call it Leak City. These days the holy city has been in the news for anything but holy reasons.

"It is a total mess," said one high-ranking Vatican official who spoke, like all others, on the condition of anonymity.

The Machiavellian maneuvering and machinations that have come to light in the Vatican recently are worthy of a novel about a sinister power struggle at a medieval court.

Senior church officials interviewed this month said almost daily embarrassments that have put the Vatican on the defensive could force Pope Benedict to act to clean up the image of its administration - at a time when the church faces a deeper crisis of authority and relevance in the wider world.

Some of those sources said the outcome of a power struggle inside the Holy See may even have a longer-term effect, on the choice of the man to succeed Benedict when he dies.

From leaked letters by an archbishop who was transferred after he blew the whistle on what he saw as a web of corruption and cronyism, to a leaked poison pen memo which puts a number of cardinals in a bad light, to new suspicions about its bank, Vatican spokesmen have had their work cut out responding.

The flurry of leaks has come at an embarrassing time - just before a usually joyful ceremony this week known as a consistory, when Benedict will admit more prelates into the College of Cardinals, the exclusive men's club that will one day pick the next Roman Catholic leader from among their own ranks.

"This consistory will be taking place in an atmosphere that is certainly not very glorious or exalting," said one bishop with direct knowledge of Vatican affairs.

The sources agreed that the leaks were part of an internal campaign - a sort of "mutiny of the monsignors" - against the pope's right-hand man, Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone.

Bertone, 77, has a reputation as a heavy-handed administrator and power-broker whose style has alienated many in the Curia, the bureaucracy that runs the central administration of the 1.3 billion-strong Roman Catholic Church.

He came to the job, traditionally occupied by a career diplomat, in 2006 with no experience of working in the church's diplomatic corps, which manages its international relations. Benedict chose him, rather, because he had worked under the future pontiff, then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, in the Vatican's powerful doctrinal office.

"It's all aimed at Bertone," said a monsignor in a key Vatican department who sympathizes with the secretary of state and who sees the leakers as determined to oust him. "It's very clear that they want to get rid of Bertone."

Vatican sources say the rebels have the tacit backing of a former secretary of state, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, an influential power-broker in his own right and a veteran diplomat who served under the late Pope John Paul II for 15 years.

"The diplomatic wing feels that they are the rightful owners of the Vatican," the monsignor who favors Bertone said.

Sodano and Bertone are not mutual admirers, to put it mildly. Neither has commented publicly on the reports.

WHISTLE-BLOWING ARCHBISHOP

The Vatican has been no stranger to controversy in recent years, when uproar over its handling of child sex abuse charges has hampered the church's efforts to stem the erosion of congregations and priestly recruitment in the developed world.

But the latest image crisis could not be closer to home.

It began last month when an Italian television investigative show broadcast private letters to Bertone and the pope from Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, the former deputy governor of the Vatican City and currently the Vatican ambassador in Washington.

The letters, which the Vatican has confirmed are authentic, showed that Vigano was transferred after he exposed what he argued was a web of corruption, nepotism and cronyism linked to the awarding of contracts to contractors at inflated prices.

As deputy governor of the Vatican City for two years from 2009 to 2011, Vigano was the number two official in a department responsible for maintaining the tiny city-state's gardens, buildings, streets, museums and other infrastructure, which are managed separately from the Italian capital which surrounds it.

In one letter, Vigano writes of a smear campaign against him by other Vatican officials who were upset that he had taken drastic steps to clean up the purchasing procedures and begged to stay in the job to finish what he had started.

Bertone responded by removing Vigano from his position three years before the end of his tenure and sending him to the United States, despite his strong resistance.

Other leaks center on the Vatican bank, just as it is trying to put behind it past scandals - including the collapse 30 years ago of Banco Ambrosiano, which entangled it in lurid allegations about money-laundering, freemasons, mafiosi and the mysterious death of Ambrosiano chairman Roberto Calvi - "God's banker."

Today, the Vatican bank, formally known at the Institute for Works of Religion (IOR), is aiming to comply fully with international norms and has applied for the Vatican's inclusion on the European Commission's approved "white list" of states that meet EU standards for total financial transparency.

Bertone was instrumental in putting the bank's current executives in place and any lingering suspicion about it reflects badly on him. The Commission will decide in June and failure to make the list would be an embarrassment for Bertone.

ITALIAN POPE?

Last week, an Italian newspaper that has published some of the leaks ran a bizarre internal Vatican memo that involved one cardinal complaining about another cardinal who spoke about a possible assassination attempt against the pope within 12 months and openly speculated on who the next pope should be.

Bertone's detractors say he has packed the Curia with Italian friends. Some see an attempt to influence the election of the next pope and increase the chances that the papacy returns to Italy after two successive non-Italian popes who have broken what had been an Italian monopoly for over 450 years.

Seven of the 18 new "cardinal electors" -- those aged under 80 eligible to elect a pope -- at this Saturday's consistory are Italian. Six of those work for Bertone in the Curia.

Bertone, as chief administrator, had a key role in advising the pope on the appointments, which raised eyebrows because of the high number of Italian bureaucrats among them.

"There is widespread malaise and delusion about Bertone inside the Curia. It is full of complaints," said the bishop who has close knowledge of Vatican affairs.

"Bertone has had a very brash method of running the Vatican and putting his friends in high places. People could not take it any more and said 'enough' and that is why I think these leaks are coming out now to make him look bad," he said.

POPE "ISOLATED"

Leaked confidential cables sent to the State Department by the U.S. embassy to the Vatican depicted him as a "yes man" with no diplomatic experience or linguistic skills and the 2009 cable suggests that the pope is protected from bad news.

"There is also the question of who, if anyone, brings dissenting views to the pope's attention," read the cable, published by WikiLeaks.

The Vatican sources said some cardinals asked the pope to replace Bertone because of administrative lapses, including the failure to warn the pope that a renegade bishop re-admitted to the Church in 2009 was a well-known Holocaust denier.

But they said the pope, at 84 and increasingly showing the signs of his age, is not eager to break in a new right-hand man.

"It's so complicated and the pope is so helpless," said the monsignor.

The bishop said: "The pope is very isolated. He lives in his own world and some say the information he receives is filtered. He is interested in his books and his sermons but he is not very interested in government."

(Editing by Jon Boyle and Alastair Macdonald)

para el que no sepa ingles les dejo dos ligas
http://www.inglessinbarreras.com.mx
translate.google.com
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Lun Feb 13, 2012 2:00 pm

ZaMaCoNa escribió:

para el que no sepa ingles les dejo dos ligas
http://www.inglessinbarreras.com.mx
translate.google.com

...y con este pie de página, el chami pisa fuerte para el evenflo 2012... lol!
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Lun Feb 13, 2012 2:16 pm

jajajajaja

+∞
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Mar Feb 14, 2012 10:07 am

jajajaaja... pinche chami mamón!!! Evenflo 2012.
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MensajeTema: Re: Sigue la mata dando parte 87.64   Mar Feb 14, 2012 10:17 am

pudo haber sido peor, pude haberles dejado este link:
www.mundodeingles.com/

Y sobre el tema me intriga lo que esta pasando en el vaticano, esa amenaza de asesinato al papa me pone a pensar que algo importante esta pasando y yo ni cuenta, no se si tenga que ver con lo que pasa en el mundo arabe y lo que parece ser la nueva guerra de Dios vs Alá

Alguien tiene idea de donde puede venir la amenaza??
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